Every so often a guest reframes something so cleanly it sticks with you for days, and that happened to me here. Dr. Elisabeth Morray taught me that psychological flexibility, the skill of feeling a hard emotion without letting it run your life, is not about thinking positive. It is about changing the relationship you have with your own mind.
Listen or watch
You can play the full episode right here, or open it in whatever app you already use.
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Why this one hit home for me
I will be honest with you. My go-to move when a feeling gets heavy is to outrun it. I clean, I make content, I work late, anything to keep my hands busy so I do not have to sit in it.
So when Elisabeth started talking about turning toward pain instead of sprinting away from it, part of me flinched. The other part of me knew she was right, and that is usually the part worth listening to.
Meet Dr. Elisabeth Morray
Dr. Elisabeth Morray is a licensed psychologist and the VP of Clinical at Alma, a behavioral health platform that supports more than 24,000 therapists. She was my guest on this episode of The Vibe With Ky Podcast.
She also trains clinicians in acceptance and commitment therapy, so she does not just talk about this work, she teaches the people who do it. That gives her a rare view of what actually helps people get unstuck.
Looking for a therapist? Elisabeth’s team at Alma can match you with someone who fits, and you can start at helloalma.com.
Find Elisabeth here: her work with Alma, and her own practice, Emerge Collective.
Your mind is a great tool and a terrible boss
Elisabeth explained that most of us do not think of ourselves as having a relationship with our mind. We think we are our mind, so whatever it says can feel like the truth.
Your mind is brilliant at physical problems. Too hot in the room? It solves that in seconds. The trouble starts when we aim that same fix-it energy at a feeling.
When it comes to solving our emotional problems, it often does a really terrible job.
Dr. Elisabeth Morray
She gave a vivid example. A scary memory can flood your body with stress even when nothing around you has changed, because your nervous system reacts as if there is real danger in the room. That is biology, not weakness.
This sits at the center of acceptance and commitment therapy, the model behind psychological flexibility. Researchers Todd Kashdan and Jonathan Rottenberg described psychological flexibility as a fundamental part of mental health in a widely cited 2010 review, which is a fancy way of saying this skill matters for almost everyone.
We hurt where we care, and grief proves it
One line of hers has stayed with me: we hurt where we care, and we care where we hurt. To show what she means, she offered clients a thought experiment.
Imagine a magic wand that erases your grief forever. Sounds like a gift, until she names the catch: you also lose every memory of the person you lost.
I have yet to have a client say that they would take me up on that bargain.
Dr. Elisabeth Morray
Nobody takes the deal, because the pain is stitched to the love. If you have lost someone, that ache is not a malfunction. The American Psychological Association describes grief as a natural response to loss, and learning to carry it is its own kind of work, something I wrote about in relearning how to live after loss.
You do not have to wait for the pain to pass
So many of us tell ourselves we will start living once the grief lifts or the anxiety quiets. Elisabeth gently flips that whole idea on its head.
What if I bring it along for the ride?
Dr. Elisabeth Morray
That can look tiny at first. Feeling the sun on your face for five seconds. Calling a friend while the heaviness is still there. Taking the hard feeling on a walk instead of waiting for it to leave first.
The skill underneath it is attention: bringing your awareness back to the here and now so you can choose your next move, rather than getting pulled into the past or the worst-case future.
Your struggle is not a personal failure
We talked about why so many of us read our own mental health struggles as failures. Social media sells a highlight reel, and a consumer culture keeps whispering that the next purchase will finally make us happy and worthy.
Elisabeth reframes struggle as an understandable adaptation to the life you have lived, not a defect in you. That reframe is the heart of the work, and it is why she points people toward acceptance and commitment therapy.
If you have wanted to try this, look for a therapist trained in that approach, and if you are not sure where to begin, here is my guide to finding the right therapist.
A few things to carry with you
- Your mind is great at fixing physical problems and clumsy at fixing feelings, so aim for a better relationship with it, not a quieter one.
- Pain often points straight at what you love, which is why grief and meaning travel together.
- You can move toward what matters while a hard feeling rides along, instead of waiting for it to disappear first.
- Struggling is a human adaptation, not proof that something is wrong with you.
People also ask
What is psychological flexibility?
Psychological flexibility is the ability to stay connected to the present moment and keep acting on your values, even when your thoughts and emotions are difficult. Instead of fighting or avoiding hard feelings, you make room for them and still choose your response. It is the core skill taught in acceptance and commitment therapy.
Does acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) really work?
ACT is an evidence-based form of cognitive behavioral therapy that has been studied across anxiety, depression, chronic pain, and everyday stress. Rather than trying to erase or argue with your thoughts, it helps you relate to them differently and keep moving toward what matters. Many people find it a good fit when thought-changing approaches have not stuck.
How do you stop grief from taking over your life?
You may not stop grief, and Elisabeth suggests you do not have to in order to live. The shift is from waiting for the pain to pass to gently bringing your attention back to the present and taking small actions you value, like calling a friend or stepping outside. If grief keeps you stuck, a grief-informed therapist can help you get moving again.
How do I find an ACT therapist?
Look for a licensed therapist who lists acceptance and commitment therapy among their approaches, then book a short consultation to see if it clicks. Directories like Alma can match you with someone based on what you need. Fit and trust matter just as much as the method.
Before you go
I came out of this conversation a little lighter. The idea that I do not have to wait for the hard stuff to lift before I actually live is one I needed to hear, and maybe you did too.
If any of this landed, do two things. Play the full episode above, and if therapy has ever felt confusing to even start, let Elisabeth’s team at Alma match you with someone. You can also find her practice at Emerge Collective.
New around here? My start-here page is a gentle way in. If you also navigate ADHD and want the self-compassion side of all this on paper, my Navigating ADHD and Adulthood digital guidebook lives in the store, and the email list is where the quieter, realer stuff goes out.
If the show helps you, a quick review honestly means the world and helps new people find us. Come follow along @TheVibeWithKy.
One honest note, and I say it with love: I am not a therapist, and this is for information and encouragement, not medical advice. If you are struggling, please reach out to a qualified professional.
Much love. Good vibes. – Ky
Full transcript
Read the full transcript
Ky: My friends, I am sitting here with Elisabeth Morray. How are ya? It is nice to see you. We are recording this on a Wednesday, the week of Memorial Day, and it does not feel like a Wednesday. I am on the struggle bus.
Elisabeth: I am doing great. It is good to see you. Thanks for having me. Memorial Day really did not deliver on summer for those of us in the Northeast. But here we are, the sun is out, and is that not always the way it goes?
Ky: That is how it always works out. So you help run Alma, a platform supporting over 24,000 behavioral health clinicians, which gives you a massive perspective on the mental health field. How has seeing so many different therapeutic approaches shaped your own definition of what therapy should look like?
Elisabeth: It has made me absolutely convinced of what I have known since I started graduate school: the relationship is really all that matters. I have skills and techniques in my back pocket, and they help. But at the end of the day, what people look for is a space unlike any other in their life, with a therapist they trust, where they can be fully themselves, vulnerable and honest, in a way that is hard to do anywhere else.
Ky: Do clinicians find themselves getting stuck when trying to help their patients?
Elisabeth: Clinicians get stuck for the same reasons clients do. That is why I work so much with psychological flexibility, which is about how we keep moving in the direction of what we care about even when we are in discomfort or pain. The research shows the most effective therapists are the ones who can model that flexibility in the relationship. So part of what I do is direct teaching, and a lot of it is modeling what it looks like to show up in a world that is often full of pain.
Ky: You talk about therapy as equal parts art and science. Why is the messy, artistic side just as vital as the clinical side?
Elisabeth: We are working with humans, with some of the hardest and most painful parts of being human. To treat that as though the scientific method alone could do it justice does not match reality. I like having a way to think about why people get stuck and how to help them get unstuck, but their experience is complicated, ever changing, and messy. Both the tools and the mess matter.
Ky: How would you explain psychological flexibility to someone who feels completely trapped in their own mind right now?
Elisabeth: At the core of it is the relationship we have with our mind. Most of us do not think of it as a relationship, we think we are our mind. That gives the mind enormous control over our behavior. It is great for physical problems, like what to do if the office is too hot. But we apply that same logic to emotional problems. If I feel anxious and tell myself to stop feeling anxious, how well does that work? It actually makes the anxiety bigger. Psychological flexibility is developing a relationship where the mind becomes less of a dictator, so we can make active choices.
Ky: You explain it so simply, yet we do not do it. Why do we respond the way we do?
Elisabeth: Thousands of years ago, using our minds to avoid pain is what kept us alive. The problem is we generalized. Avoiding a lion works, so we assume we can avoid social anxiety the same way. And because of language, our minds can conjure any terrible thing. You can be driving along, remember an upcoming medical procedure, and feel your stomach clench and your chest tighten. Nothing changed except what was in your mind, yet your body responds as if there is an actual lion chasing you.
Ky: You have this quote, we hurt where we care and we care where we hurt. How does understanding that change the way we process emotional pain?
Elisabeth: Let me give you an example I use with clients who come in grieving. I ask them to imagine a magic wand that makes the pain go away entirely, forever. They get curious, like maybe this is a good deal. Then I add the catch: you also lose all memory of the person, the relationship, the part they played in your life. I have yet to have a client take that bargain. The pain is so powerful because on the other side of it is someone who was one of the most important parts of their life. The pain becomes not just something to bear, but a reminder of what matters most.
Ky: So we use our pain as a compass for finding what truly matters?
Elisabeth: Absolutely. Most of us are handed our values by parents, school, jobs, or social media. When I ask people what is most important to them, sometimes they do not know. So I ask what is most painful right now, where they struggle and feel most deeply, and within that you always learn what someone cares most about.
Ky: How do we keep from being consumed by grief during those painful experiences?
Elisabeth: For most people there is a time when the only thing they can be is consumed by grief. My question is whether they get stuck there or whether there is movement. A lot of that comes down to attention. Our minds live in the past or the future, and part of flexibility is bringing awareness into the here and now so you can choose how to move forward. With grief that might start tiny, feeling the sun on your face for five seconds, then choosing to call a friend or go to a concert. People often wait for the grief to go away before they live. My approach is, what if you do not have to wait? What if you bring the feeling along for the ride, take it on a walk, and live your life now?
Ky: People often isolate themselves too, especially our neurodivergent audience, when the brain is telling us to hide. How does flexibility come into play there?
Elisabeth: There is a fundamental human yearning to belong. We buy the story that the only acceptable way to feel is happy, and if we feel anything else, something is wrong with us and we do not belong, so we hide. Then we feel the original pain plus a greater distance from people. True belonging means joining others in the shared experience of being human, which is fundamentally hard. Social media makes that easy to forget, because everyone looks perfectly curated. The healing move is finding spaces where you can be real and messy and still be accepted.
Ky: You are trained in process based therapy. Why do so many of us see our mental health struggles as personal failures instead of understandable adaptations?
Elisabeth: Capitalism, honestly. We are told that if we are not happy, we should be able to buy happiness, or swap out the partner, or find the next thing. It is a constant craving cycle. Being human is about a whole lot more than being happy, and what we want most, real connection, cannot be bought. The more we chase the purchase, the less present we are for the intimacy we actually need.
Ky: A lot of my audience are parents, especially moms, who feel they have zero control over their schedule. How can parents practice psychological flexibility when life is lifing?
Elisabeth: One big misconception is that change requires willpower and motivation. At the end of a long day, most parents have none of that left. So I think about how you set up your environment to do some of the work for you. If I know Wednesday night I will be depleted, I arrange for my best friend to call at 8:30, no willpower needed. Leave a water bottle on your desk so you actually drink water. Use an app that kicks you off social media. As a parent of three, I get the exhaustion. Take small steps, like sitting on the floor for five minutes to pet the dog when you walk in. Your kids can survive five minutes, and being present like that is the whole point.
Ky: How should someone find a therapist if they want to work on accepting their thoughts rather than changing them?
Elisabeth: The approach most aligned with that is acceptance and commitment therapy, or ACT. It is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy, but instead of telling you to change or stop your thoughts, which is very hard to do, it gives you new ways of relating to your thoughts and emotions. It offers the motivation and the skill to keep showing up in the world the way you want to, even when your mind is being difficult and your emotions are uncomfortable. It blends the science with a real sense of shared humanity.
Ky: Let us play a quick game, This or That. Writing or talking to process feelings?
Elisabeth: Both. I like to get it out in writing first to get clear, then bring it to someone else.
Ky: Empty calendar or a weekend packed with activities?
Elisabeth: You just asked if I am an introvert or extrovert. As an extrovert I feel energized by a full weekend, though I am learning to value a quiet one. Left to my own devices, I would be busy.
Ky: Clinical textbook or a good novel?
Elisabeth: Novel, any day. I spent ten years in graduate school and have read enough research for twelve lifetimes.
Ky: Silent meditation or ambient noise?
Elisabeth: Neither, I do mantra meditation. Repeating a mantra gives my mind something to focus on, and I find that far more helpful than silence.
Ky: Perfect morning routine or perfect evening routine?
Elisabeth: Morning. By night I just want to check out. The morning is where I orient toward my day. As someone parenting teenagers, I promise those of you with little kids, that quiet time comes back.
Ky: Where can people connect with you and learn more about finding the right support?
Elisabeth: To connect with Alma and our directory of therapists for a consultation, go to helloalma.com. If you are looking for me personally, my practice lives at EmergeCollective.info.
Ky: I will include those links. Last question, the one I ask every guest: if there is one thing you want the audience to take away, what should it be?
Elisabeth: That we most belong to one another when we allow ourselves to be real and authentic and share the struggles we face. As much as we want to hide it, most transformation happens in relationship. Whether you find that with a therapist, a partner, or a friend, I encourage you to find those spaces where being real is available to you.
Ky: I love it. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today.
Elisabeth: Thank you for having me.
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