Jennifer Kaufman said one sentence to me that I wish someone had said decades ago: when someone with autism is showing you a behavior, they’re not giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time.
She has spent over a decade as a school principal serving students with autism. Then her grandson was diagnosed, and she had to learn autism support for grandparents from the other side of the desk.
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Why this one hit me
Growing up, I was the class clown. I didn’t realize until much later that the jokes were a coping mechanism, a way to deflect instead of dealing with what was going on underneath.
I still think about that when I’m overwhelmed. As someone who lives with anxiety, the last thing I need in a hard moment is someone turning up the pressure.
Jennifer isn’t a clinician, and neither am I. She’s an educator and a grandmother who has watched, up close, what actually helps. That’s what this conversation is about.
Meet Jennifer Kaufman
Jennifer Kaufman is a school principal with over a decade serving students with autism at a school in northern New Jersey. She is also the grandmother of a child with autism, so she lives this from both sides.
She founded First Response Autism, where she trains police officers, first responders, and college campus security teams to better support autistic and neurodivergent people in their communities. She also speaks to grandparents and families.
Grandparenting on the Spectrum: A Journey from Both Sides of the Desk is Jennifer’s book about the moment her principal instincts met family life, and what she learned when they didn’t work.
Jennifer’s book
Find Jennifer at:
- Website: jenkaufman.com
- Her book: grandparentingonthespectrum.com
- First Response Autism: firstresponseautism.com
- Instagram: @grandparentingonthespectrum
- Facebook: Grandparenting on the Spectrum
Autism support for grandparents starts with following the parents’ lead
Jennifer went into her grandson’s diagnosis ready to be the expert. She goes to around 50 IEP meetings a year. At home, that didn’t work very well.
My adult child, my daughter, she wasn’t looking for a school principal to be on the other side of the phone or be at the dinner table with her. She was looking for mom.
Jennifer Kaufman
Families raising a neurodivergent child get opinions from everyone, she told me. The grocery store cashier, the doctors, the internet, the friends. Her daughter didn’t need one more voice telling her what to do.
So Jennifer learned a simple rule. If her daughter asked for her opinion, she gave it gladly. If it wasn’t asked for, she didn’t offer it.
Grandparents are often deeply involved. In a survey of more than 2,600 grandparents published in 2010 by the Interactive Autism Network at Kennedy Krieger Institute, 71 percent said they played some role in treatment decisions for their grandchild. Nearly 90 percent said facing their grandchild’s situation together brought them closer to their adult child.
That involvement is a gift. Jennifer’s point is that it works best when it follows the parents.
You’re not the expert in your grandchild. Their parent, your adult child is the expert in their own child.
Jennifer Kaufman
They’re not giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time
This is the sentence Jennifer builds her work around. It asks you to change what you think a behavior means before you decide what to do about it.
It’s a foreign concept to understand that behavior is a form of communication. That’s what it is.
Jennifer Kaufman
When someone is overwhelmed, she says, giving them grace to have that moment and supporting them through it is a learned skill. It doesn’t come naturally to most of us.
She compared it to the curb cut effect. In the early 1970s, disabled activists in Berkeley pushed for ramps cut into sidewalks, and the city installed its first official curb cut in 1972. Once curb cuts spread, people pushing strollers, carts, and luggage used them too, as Angela Glover Blackwell describes in the Stanford Social Innovation Review.
Jennifer sees the same pattern here. Giving people time, and room to decompress without fear of getting in trouble, helps autistic people first and everyone else right after.
If you’ve ever learned to hide how hard something was so nobody would notice, my conversation about autism masking with Kieran Rose goes deeper on that.
What first responders are learning about autism
Police officers and first responders are trained to handle hard situations. Jennifer’s work through First Response Autism asks them to shift that training when the person in front of them is autistic.
She told me officers can look at her a little skeptically at first. Then she tells them the same thing she tells grandparents: the person isn’t giving you a hard time.
The simple things like just giving someone more time to respond, and just shutting off the lights, reducing the sound, removing the audience.
Jennifer Kaufman
Sometimes an answer comes minutes later, after you’ve already moved on to a different question. She uses a Jersey Shore example to make it stick.
If you find a lost child on the boardwalk, remove the audience, you know, because people like to gawk.
Jennifer Kaufman
Supporting autism in the classroom starts with curiosity
I asked Jennifer about teachers in general education classrooms, the ones doing their best without special training. Her answer was curiosity over judgment.
You’ve made your decision and your determination about what’s going on before you even hear one word from that student.
Jennifer Kaufman
Then I asked for one small thing anyone could start this week, with no certification or permission required. She didn’t hesitate.
If I had to come up with one thing, I would just say slow down. … Slow down in how you’re speaking, slow down on how you’re interacting with the person. … Let them set the pace.
Jennifer Kaufman
It costs nothing, and she says you’ll know very quickly if it’s working. If you were the misread kid in that classroom, Savannah’s story about late-diagnosed autism and ADHD might feel familiar.
Key takeaways on autism support for grandparents
- Follow the parents’ lead. Your adult child is the expert in their own child, and your support lands better when it follows theirs.
- Read behavior as communication. A hard moment tells you what someone needs. It isn’t proof that they’re being difficult.
- Take things away first. Fewer lights, less noise, more time, and no audience are the simple changes Jennifer teaches first responders to try.
- Slow down. Letting the other person set the pace costs nothing, and you can start today.
People also ask
How can grandparents support a grandchild with autism?
Start by following the parents’ lead, because they are the experts in their own child. Offer information when you’re asked, and hold back advice when you’re not. Jennifer Kaufman, a school principal who is also an autism grandparent, says grandparents can be an amazing resource when that support happens in the right way.
What does “they’re not giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time” mean?
It means a behavior is usually a sign that someone is struggling, not that they’re trying to be difficult. Jennifer Kaufman puts it simply: behavior is a form of communication. Seeing it that way changes your first response from control to support.
How can teachers support autism in the classroom?
Jennifer Kaufman recommends curiosity over judgment, which means trying to understand what a student’s behavior is telling you before deciding what it means. She also recommends slowing down your speech and giving students time to process. Both cost nothing and can start right away.
What should you do when an autistic person doesn’t answer you?
Give them more time. Jennifer Kaufman, who trains first responders, says an answer may come minutes later, even after you’ve moved on to another question. Turning down lights and noise and clearing away onlookers can also make it easier to respond.
Before you go
What stayed with me is how much of Jennifer’s advice is about taking things away. Less pressure, less noise, fewer opinions, more time.
Stay for the end of the episode. She tells a story about something her father said to her, and when he said it, and I’m still processing it.
You can find Jennifer at jenkaufman.com, and her book at grandparentingonthespectrum.com.
If this conversation brought something up for you, my free Mental Health Resources Hub is there whenever you need it.
New here? Start here for the best places to begin, and follow @TheVibeWithKy on every platform.
Ky is a mental health advocate speaking from lived experience; he is not a clinician, and his content is not medical advice.
Much love. Good vibes. ‐ Ky
Full transcript
Here’s the full conversation in text, for anyone who’d rather read or wants to find a specific moment.
Read the full transcript
Jennifer Kaufman (00:00)
if you find a lost child on the boardwalk, remove the audience,
you know, because people like to gawk, people like to to hang out and watch the scene. Very curious. And that’s the
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (00:07)
They’re very curious people. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (00:11)
last thing that a neurodivergent person needs because it’s just too much.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (00:15)
everybody, welcome to another episode of The Vibe With Ky Podcast. It’s your boy Ky. welcome to the show. This is the show where we have honest conversations about mental health and what it actually takes to be an adult human being in the world right now. I’m really happy that you’re here. Most of us have a story about somebody who either got it or did not. A teacher, a coach, a parent, a grandparent.
Somebody who made us feel seen or made us feel like we were the problem. And when you’re the when you’re the kid whose brain works differently, the adult in front of you is usually deciding which of those two you are before you even said a word. That is exactly where my guest today lives. And she she lives there from two directions at once. Jennifer Kaufman has spent over a
Decade as a principal at a school for students with autism in northern New Jersey. And she is the grandfather, she’s the grandmother of a boy on the spectrum. She wrote a book about that called Grandparenting on the Spectrum. And she founded the First Response Autism training police officers and first responders and campus security teams. So here’s what we get into in this episode today. Jennifer explains why her professional expertise was close to useless at her own daughter’s dinner table.
She talks about she she makes the case that behavior is communication rather than defiance and shows what changes the moment that you believe it. She also breaks down what she teaches to first responders, which is mostly about taking things away instead of adding them. And she names the one thing you can start doing this week that costs nothing. I’ll be straight with you. Early on, she reframes something for me, and and my first thought was that I wish somebody had handed me that 20 years ago.
Then I figured out the the useful move is not being not being annoyed I got it late. It’s just passing it on to you right now. So with that said, my friends, sit back, relax, and enjoy my chat with Jennifer Kaufman.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (02:10)
Thanks for being here. I’m so excited. honestly,
Jennifer Kaufman (02:10)
Wow, that was quite the introduction. Thank you. It’s my pleasure.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (02:16)
I was telling you before we started recording how excited I am to be speaking with you today because I know a lot of a lot of people in my audience are going to be able to get something out of what you offer today. I want to start with your book. Your book, it’s called Grandparenting on the Spectrum: A Journey from
Both Sides of the Desk. And that subtitle does a lot of of heavy lifting, right? Most people come
Jennifer Kaufman (02:35)
It does, yes.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (02:36)
to a subject like autism either as a as a professional or as a family member, but you’re doing both at the same time. And and the desk metaphor really captures the duality here. So when you say both sides of the desk, what does each side actually feel like?
from the inside and how different is the person sitting on each of those sides?
Jennifer Kaufman (02:58)
Very, very different. And I I think you’re
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (03:00)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (03:01)
you’re like the first person that has asked me that.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (03:03)
Ha ha ha.
Jennifer Kaufman (03:05)
I, you know, I was this school principal at a school just for kids with autism. It was this incredible
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (03:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (03:11)
school, smartest people I’ve ever worked with. And suddenly when my grandson got the diagnosis, I thought I was gonna take that role and shift it over to family life. And really that
didn’t work very well. And that that’s what I write about, because
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (03:28)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (03:29)
my adult child, my daughter, she wasn’t looking for a school principal to be on the other side of the phone or be at the dinner table with her, right? She was looking
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (03:35)
Sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (03:38)
for mom. And though I had all of that knowledge and all of that experience, like you know, I must go to 50 IEP meetings a year. when it came down to it,
Like the knowledge is only valuable if somebody is open to hearing it and need is requesting to hear it, right? People with people
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (03:54)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (03:55)
who are caring for somebody who is neurodivergent, and neurodivergent people themselves get opinions from everybody about what you should do, right? The grocery
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (04:02)
Yes, yes they do. Yes they do.
Jennifer Kaufman (04:05)
store cashier, the doctors, the internet, the friends, everybody’s got an opinion. So,
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (04:11)
Yes.
Jennifer Kaufman (04:12)
so the last person that
really was looking for my opinion was my daughter, was my
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (04:17)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (04:18)
adult daughter, because she would ask me for my opinion. That was great. I’d be happy to provide her with information. But if it wasn’t asked for, I really learned very quickly that I should not offer it because it’s not being asked for. Right.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (04:33)
Yeah, yeah.
You you founded you founded first response autism specifically to train police officers and first responders
Jennifer Kaufman (04:42)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (04:42)
and and campus security teams on on how to support autistic and neurodivergent individuals in their community. That
Jennifer Kaufman (04:50)
Yes.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (04:50)
is a very specific and very
Jennifer Kaufman (04:52)
Mm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (04:53)
urgent gap to be filling. So walk me through what actually happens in those training rooms when you’re bringing in
first responders and police officers, when you’re bringing them into the conversation, walk me through what that what it’s like in there and and what’s the what’s the thing that probably surprises them the most that they don’t already know.
Jennifer Kaufman (05:12)
So, you know, you start out saying they’re not giving you a hard time, they’re having a hard time.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (05:18)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (05:18)
And sometimes when I pres I don’t talk about that until about halfway through my presentation, my training, and you see like that shift, that light go on that hey, yeah, because police officers and first responders, I mean, they’re used to being given a hard time by everybody, right? And
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (05:35)
Yes, yes. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (05:37)
that approach
You approach a car where you’ve pulled somebody over and you’re saying, What’s your name? And the person’s just not responding, you take that as like they’re being, they’re being really contrary and difficult,
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (05:50)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (05:50)
and that’s not it. And, you know, I tell them sometimes you could ask somebody for their name or their identification, and you might not get that answer till a few minutes down the road, you might be onto an entirely different question, and
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:02)
Sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:05)
then you hear a name.
and we talk a lot about the strategies, how to simple things as well as more complex things, because the simple things like ust giving someone more time to respond
and
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:17)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:18)
just shutting off the lights, reducing
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:20)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:20)
the sound, removing the audience. You know, I’m
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:23)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:23)
down at the Jersey Shore, that’s where this all started. And
If you if you find a lost child on the boardwalk, remove the audience,
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:31)
Mm.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:31)
you know, because people like to gawk, people like to to hang out and watch the scene. Very curious. And that’s the
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:35)
They’re very curious people. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:39)
last thing that a neurodivergent person needs because it’s just too much. so we talk about those strategies. You know, I I’m not
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:44)
Yeah. I I agree. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:47)
talking about de-escalation in terms of like physical de-escalations or the clinical side of things. I talk more
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (06:54)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (06:54)
about the practicality of it all.
and the common sense. So we talk about strategies that can be used that are just simple and quick to access.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (07:02)
Sure, sure. I th I think I think about how many times someone’s brain working different has been read as resistance or or attitude
Jennifer Kaufman (07:12)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (07:13)
by by someone in a position of authority. And and I do know that feeling personally. And that reframe that you’re describing just now, i it’s something that I wish I heard a lot earlier in my own life. So for the for the grandparent.
Who’s listening right now, who picked up your book or found your work and felt that mix of love and total overwhelm? What was the version of you that existed before you had the professional vocabulary to go with the personal experience? And what what did that version of you need the most?
Jennifer Kaufman (07:49)
that’s that’s really interesting. I I think that version of me needed me now, needed future me, because
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (07:53)
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (07:56)
you know, when my grandson was diagnosed, the professional in me, I immediately went out to look for resources. And I didn’t
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (08:03)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (08:04)
find many resources that approached it from a grandparenting perspective, in the way that I was looking for that support. and that’s what prompted me to write the book. I think that.
It’s interesting because grandparents and first responders have a lot of in common. They’ve got all of this experience, right? Grandparents have raised kids. First responders have been out there in the trenches, like working with people. They’ve got that training. Yet they come to the person who is neurodivergent or autistic, and it’s just a new ball game.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (08:39)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (08:39)
they
have to sort of throw out that old rule book and and change and shift their expectations as to what a stop is gonna look like or what a holiday
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (08:48)
You’re right.
Jennifer Kaufman (08:49)
with your grandparent is going to look like, right?
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (08:52)
Right, right. Yeah. You know, everything everything that everyone as you listen, everybody, everything that Jennifer is sharing right now, I think is the kind of perspective that takes years to build. And and what’s great is that you have you have put all of these into resources that actually are designed for the people who need them the most. and I I really do appreciate what you’re doing there. And so I wanna I wanna continue on this parent.
grandparent side of things for the for the parent and grandparent right now who are listening who who has described their child or grandchild’s behavior using words like defiant or difficult or out of control your key message reframes that completely if I’m not mistaken you you you’ve said that when when an individual with autism is exhibiting a behavior they’re not giving you a hard time they are having a hard time
That is a fundamental shift in how a person has to see a situation in front of them. Where does that reframe break down for people? What what is the what is the resistance that that gets in the way of actually believing it?
Jennifer Kaufman (09:57)
I think that grandparents in particular, like I said, like bring so much experience to it. They bring so much of their own self to it. You know,
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (10:07)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (10:08)
they’re you’re young, you’re raising your kids, your kids are having temper tantrums or giving you a hard time, and
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (10:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (10:15)
they’re not neurodivergent, or maybe they’re no they don’t have autism. So now you’re moving into the situation where there are different factors at play and
it it’s it it’s a shift that has to be made because sitting there going, well, you know, if she just disciplined him a little more, that’s not gonna work. And and understanding that you follow the parents’ lead because you’re not the expert in your grandchild. Their parent, your adult child is the expert in their own child. And
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (10:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (10:48)
really thinking and meditating on that and accepting that.
Truth is crucial to move forward in a positive and constructive way. Because you know what? Grandparents offer so much. They can
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (11:01)
Right.
Jennifer Kaufman (11:01)
be such an amazing resource to to overtaxed, overworked parents.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (11:07)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (11:08)
but they’ve got to let it happen in the right way.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (11:11)
why do you think our default systems, you know, schools, law enforcements, all that, even well meaning families, why do you think they still reach for control as the first response instead of curiosity?
Jennifer Kaufman (11:25)
Because I think it’s very difficult and it’s a foreign concept to understand that behavior is a form of communication.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (11:33)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (11:33)
That’s that’s what it is. And when somebody is struggling because they’re completely overwhelmed, giving them that grace to just have that moment to be overwhelmed and to support them through that is really a learned skill.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (11:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (11:48)
You know,
and there’s something called the curb cut effect. The curb cut effect is this concept that when wheelchairs first were around, they took sidewalks and they put that little curb cut in, you know, so a wheelchair.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (12:02)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (12:03)
So once those curb cuts were in place, then everybody started using them. People with strollers, people with grocery carts, everybody, rollerbladers use these curb cuts.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (12:13)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (12:13)
And it’s
that universal design. There’s an idea of universal design. And
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (12:18)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (12:19)
I feel that the things that I am talking about, for as much as they pertain to autistic and neurodivergent people, we could really use a little bit about that, about that in our relationship with everybody, giving
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (12:33)
Sure.
Jennifer Kaufman (12:33)
people that time, giving people that.
abil the ability to feel that they can decompress and that they can express themselves without fear of retribution or reprisal. And I I really hope that all of the the the podcasts and the media that I do, that can eventually be like a trickle down effect somewhere in the future. That that yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (12:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
I wanna I wanna as you were talking something that clicked into my head and I just wrote it down. you were talking about de-escalation earlier. That was the key
Jennifer Kaufman (13:06)
Mm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (13:06)
word that that popped out to me. And and just to remind the people listening, you know, you work with these first responders who are trained to de-escalate situations using a very specific set of tools. and then you’re asking them.
I guess not necessarily to set that training aside, but to approach things a little bit differently when they’re interacting with someone who is autistic or neuro neurodivergent. I’m curious what that conversation looks like when you’re talking to them. Like what do you like do you find that there’s any first responders or police officers that push back and say that their current training already covers this? What is that conversation like? How do they receive
it?
Jennifer Kaufman (13:43)
So
and that’s a really good question because there is that initial feeling, you know, from what I from what I get is like, what does she know? She’s she’s not out in the trenches, she’s not pulling people
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (13:53)
Mm. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (13:56)
over, she’s not dealing with with with people in the field every single day. And I accept that. I I am not.
so yes, with first responders, they they look at me a little skeptically at first. And then once we once I make it clear that I I understand that they have had some training, most police departments do provide some type of training. Sometimes it’s just a online session or it’s some readings that they do, some articles that they read.
or discussions. But we approach this from a very humanistic point of view and a a very
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (14:30)
Right.
Jennifer Kaufman (14:30)
place of compassion. And that’s once I start talking and once I start pulling them in by asking them like about the situations that they’ve dealt with. Like I do a lot of work on college campuses with campus security teams. Yeah. And s and
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (14:44)
yeah, sure. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (14:46)
that’s sort of been the evolution of this training because
once colleges heard that I was doing this, they have asked me to come on campus and train their security teams. And so
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (14:56)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (14:56)
then they’ll start talking about like kids in the dorms that might be really struggling, isolating themselves, not able to have social interactions with people. And what can they do? Because you can’t call a parent because this young person is an adult and there’s privacy laws and
We talk a lot about that. When I talk to to police officers, first responders, I try to make it very personal and I try to address questions that they have about things that they’ve actually dealt with in the field that they haven’t that they know either didn’t turn out as they would have liked it to, because the person ended up being autistic, or or where they just didn’t have an answer. And once I start dealing it on,
with things on that level, I think they understand that my credibility is in my own experiences that I’m bringing to them.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (15:43)
Like there’s there’s there’s something about being in a heightened state and and having someone meet that with force or urgency that that that kind of just makes everything worse and not better. And I know
Jennifer Kaufman (15:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (15:56)
from my own anxiety that the last thing I need when I’m already overwhelmed is someone turning up the pressure. And what you’re describing is basically the opposite instinct of what a lot of us are are trained to have. So
For for the educator, because I there’s a lot of there’s a lot of educators that that listen and and follow me, for the educator or a school administrator that’s listening right now, who works in general education in a general education setting, and not necessarily a specialized environment, someone who is doing their best but was never trained specifically for this, what’s the one shift in how they interpret behavior?
That would make the biggest immediate difference for the students in their building.
Jennifer Kaufman (16:38)
I think it’s twofold. I think first they need to approach neurodivergent students with curiosity over judgment. I think right there, you know, we say that all the time, curiosity over judgment. But in this case, you know, you might see a student acting in a certain way that you’re like, well, wait a minute, that’s and you’ve made you’ve made your decision and your determination about what’s going on before you even hear one word from that student.
so approaching things in that manner and being open to things that people who operate differently than you do, you know, different than what
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (17:15)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (17:15)
the norm is, different than what your expectations are, and being open. I
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (17:20)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (17:20)
I think that’s so important.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (17:22)
You know, someone’s gonna finish this episode today. And they’re gonna
Jennifer Kaufman (17:24)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (17:25)
feel I just already know they’re gonna feel genuinely moved by your insight and your conversation. And you and you have this calmness too. That’s really I I love it. And I I I appreciate the way that you’re explaining
Jennifer Kaufman (17:34)
Okay, thank you.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (17:36)
this because it’s really helpful. So I I just I know that people are gonna listen to this and be moved by what you’re saying. And then Monday morning is gonna come around, it’s gonna arrive, and they’re gonna be standing in their kitchen.
or in a school meeting or riding in their patrol car and they’re going to need something that they can actually use right then right there and then what I love to give people some like actionable items that they can utilize, right?
Jennifer Kaufman (18:00)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (18:00)
What is one thing, something small, something that doesn’t require a certification or a conference or anyone else’s permission really? What’s one thing that they can do that this week or as soon as they’re done listening?
That can start
Jennifer Kaufman (18:13)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (18:14)
shifting how they show up for someone with autism in their life.
Jennifer Kaufman (18:17)
If I had to come up with one thing, I would just say slow down. Just slow down. Slow down in how you’re speaking, slow down on how you’re interacting with the person. That processing time is crucial to the success in communication and socialization for people who are ner neurodivergent.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (18:39)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (18:39)
Let them set the pace, letting the other person set the pace.
is a great strategy and one that you can implement right away. And you sort of know if it’s working very quickly. And it’s of
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (18:50)
Right.
Jennifer Kaufman (18:50)
no cost. It’s of n it’s easy to remember. Just slow down.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (18:54)
Yeah, yeah. it’s something that your father told you. you think you’re you think you’re in over your head, but you’re not. And
Jennifer Kaufman (19:08)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (19:08)
he said this to you a month before he passed away. yeah. Yeah, please, please.
Jennifer Kaufman (19:11)
Actually, I’m I’m gonna correct you. He said that
he said that to me three weeks after he passed away.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (19:18)
After
Jennifer Kaufman (19:19)
Yeah. Yeah. Crazy.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (19:21)
How how did that happen?
Jennifer Kaufman (19:23)
We had a pre like pre planned vacation to go on and we decided,
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (19:28)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (19:28)
well, he passed away, but we were still gonna go to this little island and we went.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (19:32)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (19:33)
And I was outside and I said to my family, I’m gonna go inside and read my book. It’s too hot out here.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (19:38)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (19:39)
And I got inside and I sat down, I started reading, I looked up and he was sitting in the chair in front of me. And sitting there looking so relaxed. I know, I see your mouth hanging open.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (19:48)
wow.
Jennifer Kaufman (19:49)
and he goes, You think you’re in over your head, but you’re not. And I said, What? And he said it again. And then I heard a noise and I looked, and my family was walking in, and then he was gone.
And I have taken that one line and I have applied it to so many aspects of my life and it has really gotten me through the toughest of times. So, you know, who i believe that he was sitting there. And and yeah, I said I I I always return to that phrase and I share it with you. And I’m so glad you brought it up.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (20:24)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (20:24)
because
I think you think you’re in over your head, but you’re not. And that will get you through life.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (20:29)
So I’m I’m curious. I mean that thank you for sharing that story. and
Jennifer Kaufman (20:31)
Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (20:32)
I I’m definitely gonna be processing that later.
Jennifer Kaufman (20:34)
No.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (20:35)
in a good way. In a good way. What what is that what does that sentence mean to you now? You know, now now that some time has gone by, you know, you you are at this point in your life. What does that sentence mean to you now?
Jennifer Kaufman (20:47)
It means that
You take the leap. You take the jump. You make the plan. Even if it seems like a tremendous amount of effort or tremendous amount of risk, you take that leap.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (20:59)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (21:00)
And you write the book. Or you reach out to the first responders. Or you go on the podcast. You know, before every job interview over the years, my father’s gone now for almost thirty years.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (21:11)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (21:12)
Before every job interview, I would think about it. Before anything that was tough. Going into a courtroom, if I had to go into a courtroom, it was like,
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (21:19)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (21:20)
you think you think you’re in over your head, but that’s really just an illusion. Right? You’re just in the
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (21:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (21:26)
moment and and you’re going to be okay. I I heard a I heard a saying once and I used to have it written on my desktop that said, It’ll be okay in the end. And if it’s not the end if it’s not okay, it’s not the end. You
know?
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (21:39)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I like that
Jennifer Kaufman (21:41)
I love that. Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (21:43)
too. I like that too.
Jennifer Kaufman (21:44)
Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (21:45)
J Jennifer, I want to play a little game with you. It’s
Jennifer Kaufman (21:47)
Okay.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (21:48)
called This or That. And what I’m going to do is I’m going to give you a couple choices of of of things and you just have to choose this or that. That’s it. and you can choose one, you can choose both, you can choose neither. It’s not deep, I promise you. You can
Jennifer Kaufman (22:02)
Okay.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (22:03)
you can choose anything you want, okay? You ready?
Jennifer Kaufman (22:04)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (22:05)
Okay, here we go. First one. This or that. First day of school energy or last day of school energy.
Jennifer Kaufman (22:11)
last day of school energy. It’s Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (22:12)
Yeah. I figured. I love asking teachers that question.
Teachers or principals and squ I th I always love that answer. I love
Jennifer Kaufman (22:19)
Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (22:21)
that. Here we go. Number two, this or that. A student who asks every question out loud, or a student who stays completely quiet and you have no idea what they’re thinking.
Jennifer Kaufman (22:31)
I would prefer the loud student. They’re fun. Yep.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (22:33)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I was one of those students, believe it or not, when I was I was a I was a major goofball class clown when I was growing
Jennifer Kaufman (22:44)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (22:44)
up. I didn’t realize that I it was and this is a stor another story for another day. I didn’t realize it was a coping mechanism and that I was using it to deflect and to st not hel healthily process things. I used humor.
Jennifer Kaufman (22:55)
Mm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (22:56)
and and I like I look back at it now, I was like, my God. but
Jennifer Kaufman (23:00)
Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:01)
But yeah, I was definitely one of those people that you heard my voice in every class for sure. I did, I did for sure. Whether they liked me or not, that’s another story. But like
Jennifer Kaufman (23:06)
You kept you kept the teachers on their toes. That’s fun.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:13)
I have to ask them. number three, this or that. Planning everything two weeks in advance or figuring it out the morning of.
Jennifer Kaufman (23:20)
gee, I’m a little of both. I think
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:23)
Ha ha ha.
Jennifer Kaufman (23:25)
I think planning. Planning’s always a good thing, yes.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I think that’s fair. I I’m the same way. Like when I plan on vacation, I’m usually the kind of person that’s like, okay, this is what’s happening. This is how we get there. This is what we’re doing. And I leave
Jennifer Kaufman (23:35)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:36)
room for flexibility, of course. But like most of the time I know what I’m doing, where I’m going,
Jennifer Kaufman (23:40)
Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:40)
how much it’s gonna cost, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, for sure.
Jennifer Kaufman (23:42)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:43)
even the even the the we’ll figure it out the day of stuff, even that stuff’s planned. You know, like I said,
Jennifer Kaufman (23:48)
Okay.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:48)
still planned in a way. number four, this or that. A hard conversation now.
Or a harder conversation later.
Jennifer Kaufman (23:56)
a hard conversation now, always. Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (23:58)
Yeah, yeah,
I agree with you. and last one, this or that. A grandparent who spoils completely or a grandparent who holds the line.
Jennifer Kaufman (24:06)
well
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:07)
Ha ha ha.
Jennifer Kaufman (24:09)
I was recently accused of putting an Oreo cookie in a child’s pocket and sending them home
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:11)
Ha ha
Jennifer Kaufman (24:14)
after I was told not to, but I think holding the line is super important with grandparents because
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:18)
Yeah, yes.
Jennifer Kaufman (24:20)
we’ve got to respect the parents.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:22)
Yeah, no, I feel you. I feel you.
Jennifer Kaufman (24:24)
Yeah.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:25)
I have one more question for you. and I asked this
Jennifer Kaufman (24:27)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:27)
of all of my guests. if there’s one thing that you want the audience to take away from our talk today, what should that one thing be?
Jennifer Kaufman (24:34)
That one thing is they can visit my website at JenKaufman.com and
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:37)
Yes.
Jennifer Kaufman (24:39)
learn about my newest endeavor, which is
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:42)
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Kaufman (24:42)
supporting C-level executives and HR resource people in understanding what it means to create a dura a neurodiversity friendly workplace.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:53)
Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (24:54)
And I’ve been consulting with a couple of companies and and involving myself this way now. It’s funny how life just keeps evolving and pull pulling into
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (24:59)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (25:02)
different sectors. So I would say visit jenkaufman dot com because all of my information is there about grandparenting, about first responders, and about my corporate support resources.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (25:12)
Absolutely.
And all all of all of your links are going to be in the show notes of this episode. That way, anybody that’s listening or watching right now, all you have to do is go down there and click, and it’s all going to be there. Jennifer, before you go, I just wanna say for the record, that this conversation is one that I think is going to stay with people for a long time. And I and I truly mean that. the
Jennifer Kaufman (25:33)
Thank you.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (25:34)
the way that you hold both the professional and the personal
At the same time without letting one erase the other. I think
Jennifer Kaufman (25:42)
Mm-hmm.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (25:42)
that’s rare. I think that’s something very rare. and the fact that that you have turned all of that experience into resources that people can actually use, that is the work. That is, that is exactly the work. And so I’m I’m very thankful for you sharing that and for you being here. So thank you so much for hanging out with me today. Yeah.
Jennifer Kaufman (26:00)
Thank you, Ky. I appreciate
it so much.
Kyrus Keenan Westcott (26:02)
Okay, let me tell you what I got out of that conversation today. First and foremost, huge thank you to Jennifer Kaufman for that time that she spent with me today, and specifically for how honest she was willing to be about her own limits. She spent a decade running a school for students with autism. then her grandson was diagnosed, and she found out that all of that experience it did not automatically make her helpful at her daughter’s dinner table.
And that’s a hard thing to say out loud. And she said it in the first three minutes of this episode. So I really appreciate her for being open and honest about that. What stayed with me is how much of her work is subtraction, not adding a strategy, not adding pressure, not adding your expertise. You know, turn off the lights, lower the sound, remove the audience, give the person more time to answer, and then a little more than that. Talking about her daughter, she said she said the line that reframed the whole interview for me.
Which is that the the knowledge is only valuable if someone is open to hearing it. So if you take one thing from this episode, let it be this: the behavior in front of you is information. It is not defiance. Her words were, they’re not giving you a hard time. They’re having a hard time. Once you believe that sentence, your first move changes.
Three things that you can do with all of that information this week. first off, slow down, which was Jennifer’s own answer when I asked her for something small. Slow your speech, slow your pace, let the other person set the tempo. Ask before you offer. and if nobody requested your advice, sit on it. And when somebody is overwhelmed, look look for what you can take away instead of what you can add. listen, if you were
listening to Jennifer today and you want to know more about her, you’re like, I like this Jennifer person. If you want to learn more about her and her story and the work that she does, go check out her website at GrandparentingOnTheSpectrum.com. Her book is called Grandparenting on the Spectrum and her training platform is First Response Autism. It is all linked in the show notes and in the comments. and if that conversation brought something up for you, I keep a mental health resources hub over on my website. So you that’s ready for you whenever you need it.
and if you want more from me, go visit my website at TheVibeWithKy.com and make sure you’re following me @TheVibeWithKy on all major social media platforms. With that said, my friends, thank you so much for watching and for listening. As always, much love, good vibes. I’ll catch you next time. Bye.
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